Discussão:Willem van der Haegen

I would like to open a dialogue about this article. As an ancestor to 10,000 or more descendants in the Açores, Brazil and the US, this has some impact. The family line-up as reported on this profile's Wikipedia page is totally wrong. The research used for that line-up is old and done by researchers who a) didn't read Dutch and b) never consulted the archives in the Flemish city of Bruges. All this was corrected by André Claeys, a Flemish, who worked in the Bruges archives and unearthed many previously undocumented records. He is a recognized authority on the Flemish migration to the Açores. Please check his work on the portal of the Government of the Açores here: http://www.bparah.azores.gov.pt/html/bparah-arquivo+regional-documentos+genealogicos-aclaeys.html Much of that work remains untranslated right now, but here's an English-language document that specifically addresses the profile of Willem de Kersemakere ("Guilherme da Silveira"): http://www.bparah.azores.gov.pt/genealogias/genealogias+a.clayes/pdfs/andre_claeys-clarifications_about_casmaca-v3final.pdf You will find as the basic proof that the Wikipedia entries are wrong, the notarized will of Willem's second wife. She confirms his real name: "de Kersemakere", and NOT "van der Haeghen". The research of Claeys suggests that "van der Haeghen" was the name of Willem's first wife. And, in fact, all of his children except one are from this first wife, too. Willem has been connected, unfortunately, to Jean de Bourgogne. This wrong information is the result of the old genealogies, but that keep coming back of course in online genealogies.

Justificativa para minhas edições na páginas "Willem van der Haegen".

Estou escrevendo isso para justificar minhas últimas edições na página "Willem van der Haegen". A versão anterior do artigo baseava-se em pesquisas do final do século XIX e início do século XX, as quais desde então haviam sido consideradas inadequadas e desatualizadas. A fonte que citei, embora singular, é uma transcrição, assim como uma tradução para o holandês moderno de manuscritos medievais (em francês e flamengo antigos) datados do século 15, que são contemporâneos da vida de Willem e fornecem evidências muito fortes e convincentes de que seu sobrenome real era De Kersemakere (De Keersmaeker). Isto é particularmente relevante porque todas as fontes anteriores sobre esta pessoa derivam de fontes portuguesas e açorianas e não dos arquivos de Bruges (a cidade natal de Willem). Eu sou uma falante nativa de holandês e português, e portanto sou capaz de analisar cuidadosamente as evidências. Somado a isso, a pesquisa genealógica de André L. Fr. Claeys foi publicada pela primeira vez em uma página do site oficial do governo dos Açores (www.bparah.azores.gov.pt), que infelizmente encontra-se offline e indisponível há algum tempo. No entanto, tenho uma cópia salva no meu computador e também encontrei a cópia on-line que eu vinculei no artigo. Por último, mas não menos importante, não mudei a narrativa do artigo inteiro, mas, em vez disso, acrescentei luz a essa nova informação em suas verdadeiras origens. Frid.antonia-arlon (discussão) 03h58min de 21 de maio de 2019 (UTC)

I totally agree with the assessment that a singular source is not enough evidence to make such substantial changes that I have made previously (re-identifying Willem van der Haegen as Willem De Kersemakere). In light of that I invite you to participate in the discussion below. During my research on the subject I have found plentiful evidence that would characterize Willem van der Haegen as indeed ‘Casmaca/Cosmacre/De Kersemakere/De Keersmaeker’. Many scholars throughout the centuries have pointed to the incongruences listed in the previous narrative of this article. I believe now that there is overwhelming evidence enough to reidentify van der Haegen, as follows:

Primary sources -

[Primary Source] In the official online archives of the city of Bruges, there is a civil sentence (which is an original contemporary manuscript dated from April 2nd, 1470), detailing the commercial relations of an individual named Willem De Kersemakere with various Portuguese merchants, whilst nobody has yet found any documents in Flanders referring to an individual named Willem van der Haegen. I am a native speaker of Dutch and as such was able to confirm the veracity of this information. You can verify my finding here: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Archief_Bank_Brugge,_Civiele_Sententi%C3%ABn,_Vierschaar,_Nr._104_van_02.04.1470,_pg._56.jpg), (Archief Bank Brugge, Civiele Sententiën, Vierschaar, Nr. 104 van 02.04.1470, pg. 56, available in the official archives of Bruges on https://www.archiefbankbrugge.be, via route: Civiele Sententiën > Vierschaar > 1470 > 56); [Primary Source] In 1506 (during the lifetime of Willem, 1430-1507/9), Valentim Fernandes wrote in his manuscript 'Descripcam' (in latin) the name 'Guylelmo Hersmacher' to refer to Willem van der Haegen; [Primary Source] The name Casmaca/Cosmacra has been used by scholars to refer to Willem van der Haegen since the second half of the 16th century (first by Gaspar Frutuoso in the manuscript Saudades da Terra), and afterwards by several other scholars throughout the centuries; [Primary Source] The will of his wife (Margarida de Sabuya) from 1510 (registered by the notary André Fernandes), referred to him solely as Guilherme Casmaca; [Primary Source] In 1646, in the manuscript 'Espelho Cristalino', Diogo das Chagas states that Frutuoso was wrong in claiming that Willem van der Haegen was the grandson of a Count of Flanders, instead arguing that there were two people named Silveira: "João de Silveyra, a very important man and great merchant (or cunning merchant)", to whom Josse de Hurtere (Joz de Utra) made many promises if he would agree to settle on the Azores, and another "Guilherme de Silveyra of the Silveyras of Brandath" who traveled to Flores and then São Jorge. In regards to the latter, Diogo das Chagas notes that the name Brandath is a linguistical corruption of Vandraga, according to the act of D. João II (concerning van der Haegen's coat of arms); Secondary Sources -

[Secondary Source] In the late 19th century / beginning of the 20th century, António Ferreira de Serpa (Portuguese historian), refuted the noble origins of Willem van der Haegen and also mentioned his wife's will and the name Casmaca in many of his writings (books and papers); [Secondary Source] In 1900, in his book 'A History of the Azores Islands, Vol. 5, p. 140' James H. Guill makes certain allegations pertaining Willem van der Haegen's origins (Guill claims that Willem was a grandson of John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy). However, he does not cite any sources for this information. Marcelino de Almeida Lima (Azorean journalist and historiographer) also brings up the rumor that van der Haegen was the grandson of a Count; [Secondary Source] In 1944, Eduardo de Campos de Castro de Azevedo Soares in Nobiliário da Ilha Terceira, Vol. 2 claims that colonizer known as Guilherme da Silveira was from Maastricht, which previously belonged to the Duchy of Brabant, where there was never any family by the name Vandraga/Van der Haegen; [Secondary Source] In 2006, Jacques Paviot wrote in his article 'Les Flamads au Portugal au XV Siècle (Lisbonne, Madère, Açores), in the journal 'Anais da História de Além-Mar' (Universidade Nova de Lisboa): "A final important point is worthy of mention as to its [Guilherme da Silveira's] true origin. The first contemporary mention - while he was still alive- is in the manuscript of Valentim Fernandes, in the form Guylelmo Hersmacher. For his part, Gaspar Frutuoso writes somewhere: << Guilherme da Silveira que outros chamam Cosmacra >> (...) Now, on April 2, 1470, we find in Bruges, the bourgeois (and no doubt a merchant) Willem de Kersmakere, who, with Jan Colne de Jonghe, was was doing bussiness with several Portuguese merchants. There is no doubt that he has become Guilherme da Silveira, who has usurped the name of a large Portuguese family"; [Secondary Source] In his 2009 book 'Genealogias das Quatro Ilhas: Faial, Pico, Flores e Corvo', Jorge Forjaz says that the translation from Willem van der Haegen to Guilherme da Silveira was very questionable; [Secondary Source] In 2010, Pedro da Silveira wrote in 'Boletim do Núcleo Cultural da Horta', in his article 'Variações à Roda do Descobrimento das Flores e do Corvo': " (...) then here it is, in his surname, and not in his nickname, de Casmaca, which I dare consider indication of great deeds by Guilherme da Silveira in the Azores. Casmaca or Cosmacra is without give or take the linguistical corruption of the common noun, still used in Afrikaans, Kaasmaker, which in Portuguese translates to cheese maker"; [Secondary Source] In 2011, the Belgian genealogist André Claeys, who was also archivist of Bruges, asserted in his book 'Vlamingen op de Azoren, Vol. III, p. 2-5' the existence of a civil sentence dated from April 2nd 1470 in which a person named Willem De Kersemakere was recorded to have made commercial transactions with several Portuguese merchants. In the same book, Claeys also cites the will of Willem van der Haegen's wife (Margarida de Zabuya) in which Willem is referred as Guilherme Casmaca, claiming that the colonizer until then known in Azorean History as Willem van der Haegen was in fact the aforementioned person named Willem De Kersemakere and then going on to refute the claims made by James H. Guill concerning Willem's and Margarida's noble origins. Claeys' research on Willem van der Haegen and on several Flemish-Azorean lineages was published on the official website of the Public Library and Regional Archives Luís da Silva Ribeiro (https://bparlsr.azores.gov.pt/arquivo_regional/pesquisas-genealogicas/), which according to the Azorean Regional Secretariat of Education and Culture is one of the three libraries responsible for the genealogical inventory of the Azores; [Secondary Source] in 2012, José Guilherme Reis Leite wrote in 'Boletim do Instituto Histórico da Ilha Terceira', in his article 'Os Flamengos na Colonização dos Açores', "(...) nevertheless unsuspicious sources point to the contrary. In the will of his widow, Maria Sabuiu,(...) he is called Guilherme Casmaca, that is a linguistical corruption of Kasmach, which in Flemish simply means cheese maker"; [Secondary Source] In 2017, Jorge Forjaz (Portuguese historian and genealogist) gave a lecture which among other things said: "On the other side it is noteworthy that in the context of this surname, another one arises later, Casmaca. (...) in the will of Margarida Sabuio, the notary André Fernandes says she is the wife of Guilherme Casmaca. Certain authors also say he was from the generation (lineage) of the Kasmach of Flandres, originally from Maastricht and Bruges. The surname Kasmach does not exist in Flemish but is an otherwise known word of the dictionaries, with slight variations, Kaasmaker, which in Flemish simply means cheese maker"; I also would like to state the following:

On January 4th, 2013, the user @Rediergummischreiber: noticed some incongruences in the narrative of the article which are listed above, of which I must reinforce: in the 15th century the nobility was not allowed to conduct trade, therefore Willem van der Haegen must have been either 1) a patrician, 2) a merchant who was enobled because of his wealth; On June 7th, 2014, some anonymous user posted on the talk page of Willem van der Haegen's article in the Portuguese wikipedia that the research used in the article is outdated and was done by researchers who a) did not read Dutch, b) never consulted the archives in the Flemish city of Bruges. Then they go on to detail Claey's findings and claims; One of the arguments which was used to prevent the changes I proposed is that there weren't enough sources to reidentify Willem van der Haegen as De Kersemakere. However, if you see the sources listed above and compare the number of sources listed in the article before my edits (2) with the number of sources after my edit (13), you might find this claim questionable; Please bear in mind that I do not wish nor have I ever wished to change the name of the article, also, I do not wish to remove the name Willem van der Haegen from the article. I just wish to present the other names Willem van der Haegen is known by; I believe that the purpose of wikipedia is being a source of encyclopedic knowledge in which anyone might contribute with new research as long as it can be substantiated by scholarly sources; Last but not least, I believe I have thoroughly demonstrated that the changes I am proposing to this article are well supported by the aforementioned scholarly sources. Wih kind regards,

Frid.antonia-arlon (discussão) 20h16min de 18 de junho de 2019 (UTC)