Usuário(a) Discussão:86.89.146.118

Hi!

3 of the 5 people you asked so far are either inactive or not good in English. But I will help you out. I saw you first made a request for this page two days ago: I'm sorry that our "requested articles" page is in that situation, lacking interested people. But I'm up for it!

I'll start this article now, probably translating the first few paragraphs, categorizing/linking/referring and hope more people will join the translation. I'll put a message announcing that in the article. {{Em tradução}} is what we use.

And yea this will sure be a nice addition to our wiki, but there are so many famous or important people needing articles! It's sad.

Come back here later, I'll have created Pier Gerlofs Donia article. Don't hesitate to call more people for the job, you're asking it in a friendly way so there's absolutely no problem. See you later! Daimore ^msg 19h46min de 23 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Hello! If you need the translation by now, I'm busy. I may can do it in a near future. But if you're hurry, you can select any one of translator's colleagues at: Wikipedia:Projetos/Tradução/Membros#Participantes (this page is a list of our group of the Translation WikiProject) Ask me anything, if you have any doubt. So long — Delemon^{bão tamém!} 19h46min de 23 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm busy too. But if you need anything else, please, contact me. Bisbis ^msg 19h50min de 23 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but i only want to tranlate avril lavigne's artic!!--vitor mazuco (discussão) 19h52min de 23 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

See? I told you (@above comment). Daimore ^msg 19h55min de 23 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Thank all of you guys for your help and understanding. This is really helping me out here! If only I would write good Portugese, I would come and help you guys, but sadly enough, I do not. On the English wikipedia I have translated many articles from Frisian language to English. There was very few people interested. Out here, I asked just a few people and immediately got a quick and friendly reply from all of them! Well, I will come back regulary to watch the article. I hope you will be so good to add links to the article on Pier Gerlofs Donia once you have created it? Maybe you could take a look at the "what links here" option at the English version. In any case: I am happy with your help, I really appreciate it. Good luck and take care! 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 20h15min de 23 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'll start adding links to the article all over our wiki, starting at Dutch noblemen and articles about Netherlands history. I just started tho, I'll sure end this translation and work more on it. Glad you liked it and came back to see, makes it worth the work. See ya! Daimore ^msg 14h17min de 24 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Good to here so. Well, I will be here quite often, as a random passerby. Please keep me informed of the work you're doing, if you'd like. 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 19h58min de 24 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

You see, ZERO users in here are interested in old Dutch history, that's why there's no link to this guy Pier whatsoever. He's not know worldwide, I don't know what's your interest in him, but he's now important in portuguese speaking places. Plus, people at en:wiki worked together for the article, I've asked for help in translating it and nothing. No problem, I'll end it alone and start linking for it, but it's hard to do so without help and motivation: it's like an orphan article, demanding so much work, plus it's not easy. I had to ask more experienced people in order to translate that 14th-century quote, among other stuff.

It seems as you don't know how difficult it is to build an article from scratch all by yourself. It's been only 5 days since you first asked, usually we take two weeks to create a decent, considerably big article like this one. Have you seen the amount of red links in that page? Yea, it's not motivating at all. Again, I'm finishing this, but I still need a few days. Daimore ^msg 12h55min de 28 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Well, he is a bit known in the USA: he has a couple of hundreds of decendants living out there and the page has +500 visits each day over there. So he is not a unknown figure. He is famous for his feats of strength, legendary size and for the fact he never lost any battle at all. There are people interested in him and it "is" a interesting figure; I'd say the most interesting figure in all of Dutch history. On the Spanish wikipedia, he is linked in, for example, : Charles V, holy Roman Emperor. He started and led a rebellion that would last succesfully against the Holy Roman Empire for nine years from 1515 until 1523 and after his death his giant nephew Wijard Jelckama took over the command of his forces (the Arumer Black Heap, an army of peasants and petty noblemen numbering over 4,000 soldiers). In his biggest (naval) battle Donia captured 28 ships and killed 500 sailors: that is a huge naval battle for the time, comparable to many big naval battles of more recent times. His decendants still live in the province of Fryslan, in the province of Groningen and in USA (Dallas for example). I understand it is hard, and that it will take time, but please do not make the mistake this guy is of little importance! I do not want to be to demanding, and I wish I could help you but I cannot. I will be looking at the progress you make each day for at least another weak. I will be watching the links in other pages and the daily view count. I will be watching references and sources and if you want any help with that, please ask me. About things you say you need to translate: that is no hard job since on the English version, all ancient quotes have been translated into English: just translate those into Portugese and add them in; don't do things like that the hard way when you could do those the easy way! When there is anything I could do, just tell me: we'll be in touch on both my talk page and yours. See ya! 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 15h31min de 28 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I saw your work too, glad you started linking also, I'm more focused on the pages requiring some explanation and further translation to add his link right now. I was impressed how demanding a single section can be, that "Rebellion" part required me to ask explanation in en:wiki and investigate Saxon articles in pt:wiki, since there were no interwikis to any of the Dukes of Saxony here, and their names are quite different than the English version (George, Duke of Saxony became Jorge de Saxe!), after all it took me 2 hours to write 8 lines. I'm being as detailed as possible while making the translation to not make any mistake, checking other articles on the matter and all. Still a lot of the links are red, which is quite frustrating, but hopefully with more links to the article more people will join, adding images is a great way for this.

As I said, I'll keep working on it, now I noticed that linking for the article is as important as translating it, so it gets more attention. I'll keep doing both, don't worry. Having to check and translate references along with templates for them and external links (which I'm done with now) is not easy. See ya! Daimore ^msg 18h37min de 28 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Well then we all learned a valueble lesson: I thought of translation as easy (which it was not) and you forgot about the importancy of linking! I am happy that has been solved now: I seemed to forget how hard it is to translate an article on a important historical figure with many links into many other pages (who's names are, as you said, very often written completely different in Portugese then they are in English! Thank you for helping me so well: I am 100% sure it'll all work out just fine in the end! Good luck and take care! 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 21h17min de 28 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Aviso

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RafaAzevedo ^msg 08h39min de 29 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

You seem not to understand the fact I am just trying to get this Pier Gerlofs Donia figure integrated into your wikipedia. He is the most important figure in Frisian history: of course he should be in those pages I added him in. I know I should not use english at this portugese wiki, but maybe you could translate sentences i place in english into portuges instead of just removing links that should be there. All I am doing here is good faith edits. Ask Daimore, a user wih whom I have been working here. 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 09h29min de 29 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Do NOT insist on placing that fellow's name on all articles concerning Frísia, it simply makes no sense. Should we add then all Frisians in that section? That is not the proper procedure here in this Wikipedia, please refer to other articles. Do not insist on engaging in edit wars, that behaviour is extremely frowned upon as well. RafaAzevedo ^msg 11h32min de 29 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I am not trying to start any edit wars. This fellow is just of huge importance in Frisian history: of all Frisians, he is best known. He has a very important place in Frisian history, you see. So I insist on having a few small lines on this guy in Frisian related articles. Would you not agree with me he is notible enough for that? It is not much I am asking, just one line would do. 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 11h36min de 29 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

I definitely agree he should be mentioned in the articles if he is important in Frisian history. But not in the "See also" section (Ver também), as that section's purpose is not to contain the links to all things related to the subject, but simply the main ones. I have a proposal: I'm offering to translate the English version of the articles related to Frisia (en:Frisia, en:Frisians and en:Friesland, so that this character will be properly mentioned where he should be - in the sections which discuss the History of the region. What do you think? Regards, RafaAzevedo ^msg 11h44min de 29 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, that was just what I was hoping for! I would say: go ahead and good luck! Thank you very much for helping me out here!

Why should Pier Gerlofs Donia be in the article about the Holy Roman Empire!? Even if the Frisia participate as one of the HRE states in the 16th century, he didn't participate at all in the HRE's history as a whole. Please don't try to add this kind of info there. We do respect the image of him, as King of Frisians, but put that info in the correct article. Leonardo Mio (discussão) 11h54min de 29 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

He should have a little sentence in the Holy Roman Epires history as a whole. He truly is of great importance in Frisian history, and of some (minor) importance in overall history. Maybe there is no need for three lines like I put in, but you could just put in 1 line like:

From 1515 until 1523 the Holy Roman Empire also had to contend with a rebellion of Frisian farmers and petty noblemen led by Pier Gerlofs Donia and Wijerd Jelckama."

Then the image could be included there where I put it in: I see no harm in for having a image for that particular section only makes it more appealing. What do you say about this proposal? 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 12h38min de 29 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC) 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 12h38min de 29 de Outubro de 2008 (UTC)

Finished translation

Yup, it's done. I just need to translate one last thing (that poem, it's been impossible), then adapt the text to Portuguese wiki, do a few changes, and start linking and calling people to see the article and say what they think of it. I still want to get rid of all the red links, a job in which I hope I get some help.

Another IP offered me some help, but he seems a little inactive, so I'll ask you this: do you speak Frysian? If so, is Frysian really different from Dutch, so much that I would have to distinct both languages on external links? Also, I'd need help translating a few words, as Grotte Pier itself: does it mean "Tall Peter" or "Grand/Great Peter"? As in tall or in greatness? I wanna translate it to portuguese cause people here have never heard of him.

Oh, and I found some more references which I added here and will do later do the English version. I'll help the article nomination to GA there in what I can, and someday maybe nominate it to featured here. Just need to get rid of all red links and think of some way to better use the few images there are.

Well, that's it. It took me some time but it's done, and it will be linked across Portuguese wiki in a few more days, enough time for more people join me, I hope (we have a Dutch portal, I'll ask for help creating new articles). We disagreed sometimes but I think in the end it was good for both: I translated a good article here and you have a new wiki with his page. Imagine if it does get to featured, the amount of people who'll learn about him.

Thanks, and hope to see you soon. Daimore ^msg 12h12min de 7 de Novembro de 2008 (UTC)

Well, that is great! Indeed, getting it a Good Article on English wiki and here later featured is probably the ultimate goal. It would mean a great many people would learn about this man and that is obviously a great thing. About your questions:

Grutte in Frisian could stand for both "a man of greantness" and "a man of large size". It is generally used in both ways in Frisian. And yes, it is a seperate language which greatly differs from Dutch, in fact it seems is more closely related to English. Right after Scottish, Frisian is the language mostt related to English. It is a very ancient language, must older then Dutch and has been spoken since Roman Times and probably far further in history.

When translating the article there should be made (if not to hard) some difference between Dutch and Frisian sources. I do think you can see what is Dutch and what is absolutely not, or can you perhaps use some hulp at that? Well, just contact me if I am needed! I would be more then happy to help you since you helped me so well on this. You are the first translator I have worked with who does not just blindly translates the article and links it, but also check the sources and that is an admirable way of working. I would see: keep up the good work and don't bother asking me anything you care to know on this subject. All the best, 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 08h10min de 8 de Novembro de 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the answers. I want to ask you something else too. You already said that's he's Frysia's greatest hero, I feel like I need to add that here so the article can be contextualized, since he's not known for us. Just wanted to check if this is right: he fought for the independence of Frysia from Netherlands, or just made a rebellion against the authorities at that moment for what they did to him? I know he caused a lot of trouble, but don't know if it was with something big in mind or just for revenge.

Oh, and it's no problem to differ Dutch/Frysian links, I'll do that here and at English wiki, the references there are specially in need of revision. I can also start linking the article for good now that it's almost completely finished, I wanna get something around 50 articles linking to the page. Daimore ^msg 13h39min de 9 de Novembro de 2008 (UTC)

I andwered your question on your talk page. It is good you want to link the article to at least another 50 articles here, hope those will be the kind of article that atract a lot of attention, one of which could be an article on piracy, guerrilla, carlos V of spain, Holy Roman Empire, Dutch history, freedom fighter(s), rebel\rebellion, warrior (he was a legendary warrior). I will be watching the progress you make. Contact me if you have any more questions. 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 06h39min de 10 de Novembro de 2008 (UTC)

Still a long way to featured and main page, there must be no red links and the lack of images makes it harder. I'm starting to create articles in need (so many!), mainly from Dutch history but also about Dukes and cities. Wijerd Jelckama and Arumer Zwarte Hoop are on their way (by the way, can you translate into english, word by word if possible, Arumer Zwarte Hoop and Tjesck Moars See Aengste, please? They're so hard to translate to Portuguese that I'm gonna have to add notes), and then as many red links as possible. Last night I checked a lot of articles linking to Grutte Pier in English wiki and checked if there were any similar pages here: found just two, but I'll keep trying. Last night I linked it to another 5 or so pages.

Oh, and I have some good news. Did you see that his page here is the biggest of all wikis? Check it out. I'm glad you care about it's progress as you said you would, I'm really working on it. Daimore ^msg 14h48min de 11 de Novembro de 2008 (UTC)

You did a great job: it took us at en:wiki 4 years (since 2004) to get an article as good as the one here on Portugese wiki and you broke our record within two weeks or something like that! That is pretty impressive!

"Tjesck Moars See Aengste", liturally means: "Grandmothers fear of the Sea" and "Arumer Zwarte Hoop" is translated into English as "Arumer Black Heap" (as in group\mass, could also be seen as "hope"). Hope that helps. Good luck and remember you can always ask for my advice! 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 15h23min de 11 de Novembro de 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! That translation does help, I'm gonna edit the article today with that in mind. Daimore ^msg 15h28min de 11 de Novembro de 2008 (UTC)

At you service, comrade! It is the least I can do. 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 15h31min de 11 de Novembro de 2008 (UTC)

What links there

Hello! The article is translated still my work is not finished, gotta get rid of all red links (so few left!) and adjust the references. Since we last talked I've created 10 or so articles directly related to his biography - linking to the article whenever possible - and added the page to some existing articles (Erasmo de Roterdão, and History of Germany, for example. Unfortunately it's not possible to mention him on Holy Roman Empire page, me and the guys responsible for it talked and agreed that 8 years in an isolated place is not worth mentioning in such an important article, their work there is amazing. Currently 28 pages link to Pier Gerlofs Donia, way more than before; still, the article gets less views than my own page (!) but it has increased tremendously in November (last time I checked, from 300 to 1000). There's no such thing as a Good Article in pt.wiki, so he'd have to go straight to featured and that's very hard since the page has only 22kb and I can't find more information (27kb would be enough). I'm still trying to link to more stuff, but I'm pretty busy these days with administrative work (was nominated for it) and all. Well, anyway, see ya! Daimore ^msg 12h29min de 3 de Dezembro de 2008 (UTC)

As you said, it links to 28 pages - that is on the entire wikipedia however, it links to less then 20 actual articles. Those 28 you mentioned are mostly talk pages, and wikipedia pages for translators (and redirects). 50 links = 50 articles. Most of the articles it links to are not the kind of articles that get many views. Personally I do not agree at one point: I think Donia should be briefly mentioned in Holy Roman Empire, maybe not with a large section, but at least with one or two lines - he did conquer many, many ships there and the Empire really had trouble dealing with the rebels. You could find many articles in which you can put Pier Gerlofs Donia - just look at the things he did and he was known by. For example, he was a great warrior, he could be on a page on warriors, warlords, folk heroes, you name it, many possibilities! 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 12h42min de 3 de Dezembro de 2008 (UTC)

Yea, I know, but we don't have many lists here... and it's really 28 articles! Refine the search for only (Principal) - all of them are pages existing in our wiki. I still need to link it to Dutch history page and others, already did to Friesland but more are necessary. Piracy and such topics are not very famous here, there's even a Template and Portal in en.wiki and nothing here. Daimore ^msg 12h47min de 3 de Dezembro de 2008 (UTC)

Well, you are doing your best and that is all that counts. Indeed he should be (with the image if possible) in articles on pirates, history of the Netherlands and in an article on statues (with an image of his statue), and the article on decapitating (he could behead several people in one blow with his huge sword). Furthermore, an article on legends - tales on him are Dutch legends, such as the one in which he killed five enemies with a plough (Fiveval) those should all link to him in some way. That is it for now. I am sure you can do those things. You know, making articles is a tough job but linking him to excisting pages is pretty easy once you find them. 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 12h53min de 3 de Dezembro de 2008 (UTC)

You're right. Some other ip gave me other suggestions and I'll keep them in mind for subjects to which I should link. It's easy to write but not easy to find. Daimore ^msg 12h57min de 3 de Dezembro de 2008 (UTC)

Pier Gerlofs Donia

Thanks a lot! It's great to have your work appreciated. I know en.wiki awards barnstars, but we don't have such things here, so your message is enough of a motivation. And yea, Donia's article made me create a number of other related pages, which was an amazing experience overall. Thanks for that. I still wanna create Arumer Zwarte Hoop's (is that how it's written? Forgot already lol) page, and few days ago I wrote Floris article, which will soon bring up a page for the film, and so on... it seems hard to stop writing about that topic. Thanks for the message! Daimore ^msg 15h57min de 28 de março de 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I had that in mind: continue the work there, there's so much to be done. I'll see to it that his article's gets expanded in here as well. Problem is most of the articles are huge, and I don't like minimum translations, so I have to do all the job. See ya! Daimore ^msg 13h50min de 15 de maio de 2009 (UTC)

Oh yea, good news: we're getting Good Articles on pt.wiki, which means Pier Gerlofs Donia's page will have a chance at that. We're more and more selective about our featured articles, and hundreds lost their stars in the past few months, unfortunately that translation isn't enough for featured like I once thought. I tried a "did you know" for that legend saying he could lift a horse, but it's a very disputed page - unlike simple.wiki - and we don't have as many WikiProjects as en.wiki (which makes it viable to add specifically medieval themes, for example). So yea, as soon as we manage to get all the stuff on GA I'll nominate it and let you know. I'll also see the changes since the version I translated and modify if necessary here. But first there's the new Wijerd Jelckama version you told me. While I do that I'll try and find some interesting facts to try a "did you know". Daimore ^msg 14h39min de 15 de maio de 2009 (UTC)

That's great! I am sure there are plenty of interesting facts! Especially now it is expanded! :) 86.89.146.118 (discussão) 14h52min de 15 de maio de 2009 (UTC)